AWT - why not?

[mardigras]

I see the latest English guineas winner raced previously on AWTs.

We don't embrace them and many are negative. 

But I feel they have their place if organized right. Not just as a backup, but a standard option to give choice.

Enable, another high class UK runner to use them. A double Arc winner no less.

Ps. Who in their right mind would have backed the fav at those odds. Not me, that is for sure.

[Freda]

They have their place for sure.

But - and I stand to be corrected - the UK varieties don't, as I understand it, have a base constructed of tarmac.  That, along with a lesser amount of 'top' means the track can be brutal for horses with any conformation defects, or if the grooming is inadequate in any way.

[mardigras]

10 minutes ago, Freda said:

They have their place for sure.

But - and I stand to be corrected - the UK varieties don't, as I understand it, have a base constructed of tarmac.  That, along with a lesser amount of 'top' means the track can be brutal for horses with any conformation defects, or if the grooming is inadequate in any way.

Thanks Freda, yes, I'm unaware of the build process here. So agree to be of benefit, they need to be done well.

In the UK, there are probably more flat starts per year on AWT than turf, although that is just a guess.

[curious]

As far as I'm aware, Kempton and Lingfield polytracks at least are laid over an asphalt membrane. Michael Dickinson's Tapeta tracks can also be laid over asphalt.

[Freda]

7 hours ago, curious said:

As far as I'm aware, Kempton and Lingfield polytracks at least are laid over an asphalt membrane. Michael Dickinson's Tapeta tracks can also be laid over asphalt.

Any idea how deep the top layer is, C ?

I know two riders locally who have ridden on AWT'S  in the UK/Ireland were alarmed at the depth of material topping the tarmac at the time of installation.  

[curious]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Any idea how deep the top layer is, C ?

I know two riders locally who have ridden on AWT'S  in the UK/Ireland were alarmed at the depth of material topping the tarmac at the time of installation.  

Do you mean the depth here or in the UK? I know Riccarton was supposed to have 150mm and from a tyre kicking type walk a couple of years ago now, I'd say that's about right. I don't know about the UK tracks. The one at Turfway in the US was 7" and that lasted 15 years but has now been replaced by Tapeta.

[Freda]

6 minutes ago, curious said:

Do you mean the depth here or in the UK? I know Riccarton was supposed to have 150mm and from a tyre kicking type walk a couple of years ago now, I'd say that's about right. I don't know about the UK tracks. The one at Turfway in the US was 7" and that lasted 15 years but has now been replaced by Tapeta.

I meant, a comparison, really.     150mm to this dinosaur is abt 6 inches, yes?     That doesn't seem enough to me but I don't profess to be an expert, just an observer.

I know a work AWT at one of the major yards had at least twice as much top as here, and over a sand/shingle-type base separated from the poly layer by a porous membrane. That got taken up and replaced or repaired [ patched ] at reasonably regular intervals, the holes if only small in some cases sewn up by grumbling stable lads.  Not an actual racetrack, however, which wouldn't get the consistent traffic of a working operation.

[Freda]

That same English observer told me that some of the best horses from the best yards go straight to a grass Grp race straight from working on a polytrack or woodchip, there is nothing else to work on often.    So all the hysteria about 'no grass gallops ' is a shade misplaced.  However, horses are not clones, they have individual requirements and so the one-size-fits-all approach forced upon many stakeholders is not ideal.  Options to suit all horses are what should be embraced, and that fact is not considered by planners.

[curious]

I think I read a while back somewhere that Kranji reckoned they needed a 50mm top up about every 6 months because the wax coating breaks down. Also, as you noted, grooming is important. One of the attractions in the UK for work gallops from memory was that polys can be groomed to provide different types of surfaces for different work requirements. That is maybe why I remain a bit bewildered trying to assess poly performances here when you have no idea how they have been prepared. One day 80% of horses run faster than I expect, the next 80% run slower. I've never ridden on one so I'm really only guessing here but overall, properly maintained, I don't see too much wrong with them, either for a work option, or racing. Worldwide, injury rates are low. At this stage, probably way better than the likes of the Ellerslie Strathayr based on anecdotal reports.

Edited May 5 by curious

[Hesi]

What is the point of laying a synthetic track on an asphalt base that is impervious to water, therefore no drainage?

[Freda]

The asphalt is permeable and water is channeled to drains. The drainage is excellent. 

I've seen a diagram of Kemptons polytrack layer, definitely no tarmac there. The polytrack crosses the turf, the jumpers have to go about a furlong on it.

[curious]

10 minutes ago, Hesi said:

What is the point of laying a synthetic track on an asphalt base that is impervious to water, therefore no drainage?

It's not impervious. It's a porous asphalt based membrane.

Canterbury Jockey Club CE Tim Mills said that contractor Fulton Hogan had completed the work to schedule and on budget.  “This work, which began in January, included the shaping of the layout of the track and the subsequent pavement layers along with the installation of kerbing and drainage pipes, followed by the water-proofing membrane layer of tar-seal and chip,” Mills said.

On top of this foundation comes the Polytrack component of 80mm of drainage metal, 60mm of porous asphalt and 150mm of the actual Polytrack material itself.  Work on the Polytrack component of the ST has already begun.

[BarryB]

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=porous+asphalt#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:beb5787e,vid:_-5S9LIyYvQ,st:0

Its amazing this stuff, the permeable concrete is even cooler to watch.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=4c65df5ede669cd8&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIKFluQy_rP1-TIAWSaO7GraJGNugw:1714949729114&q=permeable+concrete&tbm=vid&source=lnms&prmd=isvmnbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2iKXLzfeFAxXR2TgGHWvtD5wQ0pQJegQICBAB&biw=2560&bih=1307&dpr=1.5#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e8726d1c,vid:2wm4H65EDbE,st:0

[Hesi]

How does the cost compare with standard asphalt, pavers and concrete?

[curious]

1 hour ago, BarryB said:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=porous+asphalt#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:beb5787e,vid:_-5S9LIyYvQ,st:0

Its amazing this stuff, the permeable concrete is even cooler to watch.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=4c65df5ede669cd8&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIKFluQy_rP1-TIAWSaO7GraJGNugw:1714949729114&q=permeable+concrete&tbm=vid&source=lnms&prmd=isvmnbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2iKXLzfeFAxXR2TgGHWvtD5wQ0pQJegQICBAB&biw=2560&bih=1307&dpr=1.5#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e8726d1c,vid:2wm4H65EDbE,st:0

BarryB, do you know whether that stuff has some flex to it cf. say standard concrete? I went for a walk on it when it was partly laid at Riccarton and wondered that. Obviously, it can't have much but it somehow felt like it would give a bit.

[BarryB]

Maybe to a heavy vehicle yes, but a concrete mixer can drive on it, so unlikely.

[Buller Rep]

On 5/5/2024 at 9:09 PM, curious said:

As far as I'm aware, Kempton and Lingfield polytracks at least are laid over an asphalt membrane. Michael Dickinson's Tapeta tracks can also be laid over asphalt.

We should have gone with Michael Dickinson’s Tapeta but when I mentioned it to Tony Pike (President of Cambridge and the Trainers at the time) he wasn’t having a bar of it. His response was… we are dealing with an Australian company and they know what they are doing and they are nearby. 
My view is that Tapeta would have been much better. And for those that for those that don’t know approximately 8 or 10 year ago Michael visited NZ promoting his product and I had the opportunity to meet him.
For those that don’t know he was probably the best jumps trainer of all time in England in the short time he trained there before emigrating to the USA and started training all over again (this time on the flat) and formulating the Tapeta track. 

[Hesi]

I recall at the time, that it was mentioned that there was no business case made for the Polytrack

[mardigras]

The biggest issue NZ face is the inherent bias against them. 

You only have to read the other sites to see it - most stemming from. Ignorance in my view.

Betting on them is not significantly different to turf once you overcome the bias, even though many will try to suggest otherwise.

In NZ, there is an anti sentiment.Done properly with a mix of turf/AWT options, they might actually become an asset.

[curious]

2 hours ago, mardigras said:

The biggest issue NZ face is the inherent bias against them. 

You only have to read the other sites to see it - most stemming from. Ignorance in my view.

Betting on them is not significantly different to turf once you overcome the bias, even though many will try to suggest otherwise.

In NZ, there is an anti sentiment.Done properly with a mix of turf/AWT options, they might actually become an asset.

I agree. There are certainly many examples of horses training primarily on synthetic and going on to be successful on other surfaces. The mention of Michael and Tapeta reminded me of this one.

The USA sent 3 Grade 1 winning dirt horses to run in the Dubai World Cup in 2015 on dirt. They finished 2^nd, 3^rd and 4^th in exactly the same order you would expect them to finish if the race had been run at Santa Anita, but they were beaten by the 8 year old Prince Bishop who had never trained on the dirt in his life and had only trained on Tapeta.

I'm surprised to learn that the TA dismissed the Tapeta option with many trainers now not supportive of  the polytrack that was installed instead. I'm hoping that the case for it was at least sought and considered by NZTR and the respective clubs. At least two North American tracks (Woodbine and Turfway) have replaced Polytrack with Tapeta and the NYRA are constructing one at Belmont.   Data suggests it is also safer than other synthetics.

2017 INJURY STATISTICS FOR NORTH AMERICA

Racetrack	Percentage
Woodbine (Tapeta)	.63%
All Synthetic Surfaces	1.1%
Turf	1.36%
Dirt	1.74%

Source: USA Jockey Club Injury Database

 

 

Edited May 6 by curious

[Freda]

Anecdotally,  it seems that polytrack was the only consideration. 

Bernard Saundrys association with Pakenham overrode normal business procedures.

[Freda]

6 hours ago, mardigras said:

The biggest issue NZ face is the inherent bias against them. 

You only have to read the other sites to see it - most stemming from. Ignorance in my view.

Betting on them is not significantly different to turf once you overcome the bias, even though many will try to suggest otherwise.

In NZ, there is an anti sentiment.Done properly with a mix of turf/AWT options, they might actually become an asset.

That last sentence is the telling one, IMO.   Options of turf/AWT have in many cases been removed.  Programmes/dates [that old bugbear] have been structured to give little choice, hence the resentment.    As a training surface, the consistency and resilience in very adverse weather conditions make them a real asset.  But the removal of OTHER work options has created a negative perception - very understandable in my view.

For example, recent research showing significant wear/damage to one hip joint and surrounding structures when horses are worked in one direction only is very telling.  I agree such concerns are not important from a punting perspective but are very important wrt horse welfare to those who actually give a shit.

[curious]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

For example, recent research showing significant wear/damage to one hip joint and surrounding structures when horses are worked in one direction only is very telling.  I agree such concerns are not important from a punting perspective but are very important wrt horse welfare to those who actually give a shit.

Can you point us to that research please Freda? I find it surprising that there is no right handed work at Riccarton. At Foxton all Monday and Friday work is right-handed and special permission for right handed gallops could be obtained for horses with engagements on right handed tracks. I don't see how the post AWT track limitations would stop Riccarton having a couple of right handed days each week. It is usual and best practice to work all horses, whatever field, about equally in both directions from the start for even muscle development, strength and agility.

[Freda]

57 minutes ago, curious said:

Can you point us to that research please Freda? I find it surprising that there is no right handed work at Riccarton. At Foxton all Monday and Friday work is right-handed and special permission for right handed gallops could be obtained for horses with engagements on right handed tracks. I don't see how the post AWT track limitations would stop Riccarton having a couple of right handed days each week. It is usual and best practice to work all horses, whatever field, about equally in both directions from the start for even muscle development, strength and agility.

Absolutely.    But most don't give a sh#t and some have probably never even thought of it.

I'll send it to you on Messenger, I don't know how to get it here.

[curious]

Thanks Freda. Here it is for any one else interested. Click on the full text available button if you are up to digesting the whole article.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7756868_Femoral_asymmetry_in_the_Thoroughbred_racehorse#fullTextFileContent

I note that article has been cited 28 times. The latest last month.

https://www.researchgate.net/search.Search.html?query=Associations+between+Racing+Thoroughbred+Movement+Asymmetries+and+Racing+and+Training+Direction&type=publication

It's a significant animal welfare issue if clubs don't provide for reverse work.

If NZTR were serious about their animal welfare guidelines, they would simply require it of all licenced training facilities.

Edited May 7 by curious